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HomeMy WebLinkAbout6/13/2003SPECIAL JOINT PUBLIC WORKSHOP OF THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS AND THE PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGARDING PLANNED DEVELOPMENTS (PD'S) JUNE 13, 2003 JUNE 13, 2003 June 13, 2003 SPECIAL JOINT PUBLIC WORKSHOP OF THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS AND THE PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION OF INDIAN RIVER COUNTY REGARDING PLANNED DEVELOPMENTS (PD'S) The Board of County Commissioners of Indian River County, Florida, met in Special Session at the County Commission Chambers, 1840 25th Street, Vero Beach, Florida, on Friday, June 13, 2003 at 9:00 a.m. Present were Kenneth R. Macht, Chairman; Caroline D. Ginn, Vice Chairman; and Commissioners Fran B. Adams, Thomas S. Lowther and Arthur R. Neuberger and the Planning and Zoning Commission Members Gene Winne, Leland Gibbs, Jr., Donna Keys, George Hamner, Jr., David Cox, Norman Hensick, Jr., and George Gross. Also present were County Administrator James Chandler; County Attorney William G. Collins II; Deputy Clerk Patricia "PJ" Jones. Chairman Macht convened the meeting. Community Development Director Bob Keating led the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. Planning Director Stan Boling gave a brief PowerPoint presentation (copy on file with the backup) with charts of all the Planned Developments since 1985 excluding Cypress Lakes, which were visited by the Board. The analysis did not include the commercial and industrial planned developments. JUNE 13, 2003 1 The purpose of this public workshop was to review the Planned Development process, receive public input, identify problems, determine if there is a need for changes, and recognize those specific areas. On June 6, 2003, the planned development mobile workshop was held where the Board visited planned developments and conventional subdivisions. Director Keating reviewed the planned developments and subdivisions visited using a PowerPoint presentation (copy on file). Director Keating continued explaining the planned development process of approval, staff objectives, conclusions, and recommendations. He concluded asking the Board to consider the information presented, obtain public input, determine if planned development regulations need to be changed and to provide direction to staff. George Gross, 1230 39th Avenue, a member of the Planning and Zoning Commission, provided an explanation of the data that he obtained from the workshop of June 6. The data summarized five major areas of the planned developments evaluated (copy on file) on a scale from 1 to 10 with 10 being the highest rating. The areas of evaluation included appearance from public roads, perimeter compatibility, and use of open space, pedestrian circulation and recreation, landscaping and tree and wetland preservation. These items are subjective and cannot be evaluated. The general purpose was to find out if planned developments are doing what we would like to see in the community. Chairman Macht thought one of the reasons for low scoring was the type of construction on the lots. In many cases you have a single builder and one design flipped. The alternates are not very attractive. Mr. Gross concurred with Chairman Macht, stating that "cookie cutter" lots and "cookie cutter" houses are not the best for a subdivision or the community. Chris Crawford, 3336 4th Place, disagreed saying that was a subjective view. JUNE 13, 2003 2 Mr. Gross pointed out that the planned developments rated about 50 percent better than regular subdivisions. Chairman Macht felt that would have been markedly different if they had toured 5th Street SW. The subdivisions there are beautiful and a standard percentage is somewhat skewed by what we saw. Dr. David Cox, 9495 Periwinkle, President of the Planning and Zoning Commission, limited his remarks to Mr. Gross's presentation. He thought the a -b -c -d grid analysis was very helpful. However, coming up with an average assumes that the categories and what they reflect are all of equivalent value. That may not be so to neighbors looking at a conceptual site plan at the outset. Pedestrian and recreation amenities are not going to be of concern to neighbors who are more concerned with perimeter and compatibility issues. The weighting of categories will vary depending on who you are and what you are concerned about. These categories are all appearance related. They do not relate to value, infrastructure, or the concerns of neighbors. Mr. Cox felt that at times specific categories will be of much greater importance and weighted more heavily. Mark Brackett, a developer, commented on the analysis of the statistics. His concerns regarded the Heron Crest subdivision where there are no trees and no wetland preservation. When someone rates it a nine that means it meets 90% of their requirements. The Grand Harbor subdivision was rated a zero although it has two golf courses, 2 -dozen tennis courts, miles of bike paths, miles of walking paths and is all set back off the roadway. Mr. Gross clarified that if the evaluation actually showed a zero, he would have left the zero there. Grand Harbor was based on 10 evaluators rather than 11 because one person didn't rate Grand Harbor. At Grand Harbor some of the rates went from 2 to 8 or 9, showing that people do see things differently. JUNE 13, 2003 W. L. Parmentier, 750 46th Square, Heron Crest, said that the residents of Heron Crest felt it is a nice place to live and when it is completed it will be even better. They found the comments in the newspaper embarrassing and they were very upset by the comment that puts them at the bottom of the list. Chairman Macht stated that they had no intention of denigrating any homeowner. Donna Keys, Vice Chairman of the Planning and Zoning Commission, said there are times when the developer comes before the Planning and Zoning Commission with the applicant If he doesn't like what he is hearing, he threatens to do a standard subdivision. She suggested increasing the code on subdivisions. She pointed out that we all know what we feel makes a development nice is the trees, the landscaping and the buffers. She felt we need to re-examine the tree ordinance. Peter Robinson, 315 Greytwig Road, President of Laurel Homes, said the one thing missing on our chart was the price per square foot of the product. He also felt that the average income for the development needs to be looked at, as well as the landscaping. Mary Knauer, 753 46th Square, Heron Crest, questioned what the plans are to correct their image after having the lowest rating in the Press Journal newspaper article. She felt the developers should not have been able to build without a lake or a pond on their plans. She asked if there is a plan to put in a pond if a new builder were to add more homes at Heron Crest. Director Keating's answer was that anyone planning a development in the County has to comply with the County's stormwater management ordinance and the requirements of St. Johns River Water Management District. They do not require a pond, but they do require that the engineer show that he can accommodate the quality and quantity issues associated with the stormwater. One of the reasons they visited Heron Crest was to show one alternative available to the developers in designing the subdivision. Sometimes swales are actually designed to hold a certain amount of water to provide quality treatment to the water. JUNE 13, 2003 4 Commissioner Neuberger felt this was one of the major differences between planned developments and subdivisions. Director Keating agreed, explaining that swales are placed in an attempt to maximize the density. If you put in a centralized stormwater tract and don't put in smaller lots you are going to have a smaller yield. Chairman Macht commented that they have every reason to believe that Heron Crest is going to be a nice subdivision. Bob Denton, 11245 Roseland Road, Sebastian, expressed concern when institutions or non -profits use planned developments. They increase the density tremendously, impact the use of the property in pseudo commercial uses, and impact the neighborhood. He felt that there is a possibility that this could happen in our county and believed it should be looked into. Norman Hensick, Jr., 425 3211d Avenue SW, a member of the Planning and Zoning Commission, representing himself, referred to Mary Knauer's discussion regarding Heron Crest Subdivision and the swales. He developed several subdivisions with swales along SW 5th Street before the stormwater retention areas existed. Those subdivisions are very nice and do hold water when they have a storm event. He thought the concern was overstated and he didn't believe there would be a problem having it in the ordinance. Bob Swift, 6450 Glendale Road, said one of the concerns he heard has been the lot sizes. He provided a handout displaying what he uses to evaluate property to determine economic viability. Regulations require the developer to provide adequate stormwater retention areas and open spaces and he feels that the County needs to give something in return. He expressed the need to find a way to sustain good developments with flexibility. Chip Landers, 1636 51St Court, a realtor, said lot sizes are really not a factor unless it is affordable housing and the smaller lot sizes are in demand. Waterford Lakes has the highest JUNE 13, 2003 absorption rates in Florida right now. Land is so expensive the only way to make the numbers work is to go to smaller lots. He believed that if he had 1/2 acre lots to sell at the same price as Heron Crest or Waterford Lakes he would be sold out tomorrow. We will have to move development west of I-95 to 1/2 -acre or acre lot developments that we can sell for $150,000 per home and lot to eliminate the problem of neighbors not liking what is being built next to them. He felt we have a feudal system in the County and the royalty says, "I only like Grand Harbor, I don't like Waterford Lakes or Heron Crest." However, that is where the serfs live. Chairman Macht said he would hate to think that is true. Peter Jones, 1924 5th Avenue SE, felt that the variety, flexibility, and economic opportunities that planned developments provide for the County are a good concept. He believes that we have a good process and feels that being good advocates of it is what we need today. Frances Sexton, 4650 17th Street SW, questioned whether the decreasing smaller lot lines increase the density of planned developments. If so, with increased density, does that factor into the impacts on roads and schools? Chairman Macht replied that the density is not necessarily increased and asked Director Keating for an explanation. Director Keating said the lot size and density are not related. When we have smaller lots there are larger open areas. The smaller lots do not increase density. The important factor is the planned development ordinance does not allow any planned development to exceed the Comp Plan density that is used to plan for infrastructure improvements. He said density is often a misunderstood term. Commissioner Lowther asked if density is affected at Falcon Trace Subdivision. Director Keating explained Falcon Trace Subdivision, zoned at RS -6, took advantage of the small lots, building out at 2.15 units per acre, almost 1/3 of what they were allowed to build. They were looking at the open space preservation, having smaller lots, and still getting financial JUNE 13, 2003 6 yield. They are nowhere near the number of lots they could have if they were to maximize the development. Chairman Macht referenced Mr. Swift's formula regarding stormwater and open space regulations downsizing lot space. He said the density is stated when the PD is approved. Based on Mr. Swift's formula, if accurate, he asked to hear what to expect under a standard subdivision to get an idea of the alternative. Director Boling responded that developers could easily get 3 units per acre and have a central stormwater system. He referenced three RS -6 zoned areas as examples: Walkers Glen built out at 3.1 units per acre; Falcon Trace built out at 2.15 units per acre; and Compass Point built out at 2.9 units per acre. He said there is little difference between RS -6 density and RS -3. Heron Crest zoned RS -3 is built out at 2.6 units per acre. Jim Kern from Homestead, Florida, commended the Commissioners for taking time to hold the workshop. He pointed out that our County is definitely below the numbers of real estate usage designated over 60 years by the State of Florida Department of Community Affairs Master Plan. He said it is impossible to meet those densities without going vertical. He asked the Board to keep in mind smaller properties versus larger ones are going to have other criteria such as density, wetlands, trees, etc., and as long as staff and the community have the same objective he was very optimistic. Richard Baker, 522 North Blue Island Lane, Sebastian, had a concern regarding density and questioned if we should follow the Comp Plan what the future population of Indian River County would be. Director Keating replied that a general estimate of the build out in the urban service area would be around 250,000, about double the current population. Every time we have a development the population estimate goes down. Five years ago it may have been higher, but when you build out less densities than allowed the central population estimate goes down. JUNE 13, 2003 7 In response to Commissioner Adams'question,Mr. Keating stated that the population is based on just over two people per household within the urban service area. Ms. Knauer asked for a retraction in the paper as far as the statements made in the Press Journal. Chairman Macht replied that they couldn't retract what has been said. The comments were mainly based on how developments are approved and he felt there is nothing to keep that subdivision from blossoming. Commissioner Adams proceeded to explain that the Board is not responsible for the printing of the article. She explained the article was written by the reporter for the newspaper. Discussion continued and Ms. Knauer pursued her point that the article would be a hindrance to a property owner trying to sell their property in Heron Crest and asked if there was anything that could be done to help them. Chairman Macht expressed his apologies for hurting anyone's feelings but did not believe that yesterday's article would prevent someone from buying in Heron Crest. He said there was nothing that this workshop could do. He ended the discussion since there was no solution to be reached. Ms. Willie Miller, 1470 5th Avenue SW, said letters to the editor go a long way and suggested that they make calls to the radio shows. She said Indian River County is still being developed and we all have to be concerned and diligent and she thanked the Board for their efforts. Mr. Gross explained that the evaluation was based on a particular philosophy and he felt to have taken a portion of that evaluation and say that a subdivision is not desirable is not right. Chairman Macht called for a brief recess at 10:40 a.m. The Board reconvened at 10:49 a.m. with the same members present. JUNE 13, 2003 Richard Bialosky, 940 Oyster Shell Lane, thanked the Board for taking time to have the workshop. He was disappointed that the Windsor project was not included in the evaluation. He felt Windsor creates a sense of place. He encouraged the Board to continue the process and was hopeful that everyone will be open and listen. He believes the future will be something everyone will be proud of. Mr. Robinson referred to the analysis of residential PD's indicating what has been approved and has not. He discovered that only seven were denied and those seven have a land use of R-1, zoned RS -3. He believes the real problem is in the definition of what is 3 -units per acre or 4 -units per acre. He said we are coming into a critical time period and we need to decide whether we want to keep Vero Beach special. Another problem he addressed pertained to the lack of flexibility on the 25' buffer requirement for a planned development. Chairman Macht questioned how the Board could obtain the authority to waive the buffer requirement. Director Keating responded that the Board could amend the Ordinance. Mr. Robinson requested the ability to plant trees along the right-of-way to make a better roadway presentation. Chairman Macht thought that decision was up to the Department of Transportation. Commissioner Ginn said some communities do it and we should also. Public Works Director Jim Davis responded briefly to the issues: as far as tree plantings, he described the elements involved in a right-of-way and noted that if he could fit all of the elements (utilities) in the right-of-way and still have trees, he would like to see it done. For stormwater drainage, he explained that percolation depends on the underlying soil status. Most of the soil types are B/D -soils west of 43rd Avenue. They have found the drainage systems west of 43rdAvenue do not work, especially being closer to the flood plain and at a further distance from the Indian River. He recommended mandating wet retention systems unless there is an extensive layer of A -soils that are good percolating soils. As to completion of the road work at JUNE 13, 2003 9 Oslo Road and 43rd Avenue by the Publix shopping center, he advised that currently the bids are out for the road work and they intend to get the new bridge completed as quickly as possible. Donna Rutledge, 1276 32nd Avenue SW, said she and her husband like to travel and look at homes and are impressed by those qualities that give a sense of place, charm, and creativity. She doesn't see those factors in the new subdivisions and feels that we can come up with great creative ideas and still be affordable. Chuck Mechling of On -Site Management Group hoped that more insight and latitude would be granted to planned developments since they can generate a positive effect on the County in many different ways. He used examples of events they have organized at PD parks and golf courses. Chairman Macht asked everyone to summarize their comments and the Commissioners will consider some direction to staff. Gene Winne, a member of the Planning and Zoning Commission, admitted he was wrong in standing against planned developments and said the high-end developments are what helped him change his opinion. He believes the problem is in the interpretation and administration of regulations. He suggested reorganizing the zoning standards to accommodate the differences between the high-end and the low-end type projects (market value) as a solution. Executive Aide Kim Massung read an e-mail from Bob Johnson into the record. (COPY ON FILE WITH THE BACKUP FOR TODAY'S MEETING.) He had several comments: Is the proposed PD in the best interest of the County considering all development now underway? Consider using the RS -3 criteria to satisfy lot sizes regardless of the current zoning. A conceptual site plan must build what is noted. Stormwater plans require attention once developed to avoid becoming overgrown. Impact fees for traffic may not be sufficient to pay for roads. Consideration must be given for potential crime and drugs in the planned development. Green space should be considered separately from golf course and playgrounds. Ask developers JUNE 13, 2003 10 for references and background checks for out -of -county builders. The PD should be held to the highest standard possible and encourage in -county employment. Dr. Cox found himself in agreement with Peter Robinson. He does not desire urban sprawl and pointing out that having green space and trees is not the same as environmental preservation and classified it as gardening. Chairman Macht asked if there was anyone else who wished to comment. Commissioner Adams heard everyone saying the planned development process is a good one and worth keeping. Staff has worked out the issues in terms of compatibility of smaller lot sizes next to other developments through the PD process and the ultimate authority rests on the Board. She felt it was to their advantage to have developers come through the PD process and she felt the Board should not chase them toward the standard subdivision. Commissioner Ginn asked Director Davis when he was talking about retention areas west of 43rd if he meant stormwater lakes. Director Davis responded that west of 43rd it is very risky when an engineer thinks these systems are going to dry out. Commissioner Ginn suggested they should require a stormwater pond instead of swales for development west of 43rd Avenue. Chairman Macht inquired whether the type of soil is determined at the time of application so that the Board can pay particular attention to it. Director Davis agreed that they do know the type of soil at that phase. Director Keating stated that his staff, along with Director Davis' staff, could do an analysis and present an amendment to the stormwater management ordinance, showing the pros and cons that would affect both standard subdivisions and planned developments. Chairman Macht considered this to be very desirable and thanked staff. JUNE 13, 2003 11 Commissioner Ginn expressed a few areas of concern. She felt they needed to retain flexibility in lot size, although she was opposed to it in the past. Although there is no formula to prevent urban sprawl, they are trying to keep density down and maintain the grid. Director Boling pointed out that 2.6 units per acre was the maximum you could get in a RS -3 zone as exists in Heron Crest with the swales. Commissioner Ginn continued with the concern that a stormwater lake be mentioned in some of the smaller planned developments. She supported the mix of housing types because that is what the people want. She added that these conditions were the only things that she knew of to make it better and they do not need to be codified. Commissioner Neuberger agreed with Commissioner Ginn that the housing type is market driven. He felt the PD could use a little tweaking, but basically had no argument with it. However, he did wish that there were more affordable housing. Commissioner Lowther stated the workshop had opened his eyes regarding small lots. The biggest difference he noticed between planned developments and standard subdivisions was the buffering and he felt that issue needed to be addressed. Commissioner Ginn added that she liked the fact that the Commissioners can talk with the developers because the process is legislative. Chairman Macht felt the biggest consideration was the small lot sizes, especially adjacent to an RS -3 standard subdivision. He felt the Commissioners would more carefully analyze the projects brought before them in the future and have a much better idea what to look for. Commissioner Adams asked staff how to insure that a subdivision is completed according to the conceptual design presented to the Board and how to hold the developer accountable. Director Keating responded that a traditional subdivision just presents recreational tracts and landscaping. The site plan is presented at a later time. Chairman Macht asked whether a developer is required to build a tennis court if it appears on the conceptual plan. Director Keating said they can make a minor change and substitute tennis courts with a swimming pool and they could do it at staff level. If the Board wants to make that a condition of JUNE 13, 2003 12 a planned development, they could and changes would have to come back to the Board for approval. Commissioner Ginn was in favor of making that a specific condition. Commissioner Adams felt that staff could approve a small substitution such as a pool or tennis court. issue. Commissioner Lowther stated that it was the Colony's golf course change that started this Attorney Bruce Barkett, Vero Beach, said no one was cheated on the Colony. The developer came back to the Board for the change to the golf course and it was denied. Director Boling concluded that staff will be more specific as to what is being committed in the PD with recreation amenities and require more detail from the applicant. Chairman Macht complimented Director Boling on the tour and there were many other compliments as well as some suggestions that Director Boling consider a career as a tour operator rather than a planner. Director Boling thanked the Chairman and summarized the following: 1. Staff will come back to the Board for possible changes to development west of 43rd Avenue as Mr. Davis suggested regarding wet retention areas; 2. Analyze PDs to be specific regarding recreation amenities; and 3. Look at tree and buffer requirements along roadways for standard subdivisions. Chairman Macht said he would like to see the ratio of umbrella to palm trees reversed. Director Boling said those are not specified. Commissioner Adams, referring to development west of 43rd Avenue, questioned whether that ran all the way to the marsh or to the 10 -mile ridge? Director Davis responded that the 10 -mile ridge has better percolating soils but when they get to North County, there is not a good demarcation. Chairman Macht thanked everyone for their participation. JUNE 13, 2003 13 ALL BACKUP DOCUMENTATION IS ON FILE IN THE OFFICE OF THE CLERK TO THE BOARD AND IS HEREBY MADE A PART OF THESE MINUTES There being no further business, on Motion duly made, seconded and carried, the meeting adjourned at 11:49 a.m. ATTEST: Jeffrey K. Barton, Clerk Minutes Approved: PLJ/SpecialMinutes JUNE 13, 2003 14 Kenneth R. Macht, Chairman