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HomeMy WebLinkAbout11/26/1991 (2)BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS INDIAN RIVER COUNTY, FLORIDA AGENDA JOINT MEETING OF BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS AND CITY OF SEBASTIAN TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 26, 1991 2:00 P.M. - FIRST FLOOR CONFERENCE ROOM COUNTY ADMINISTRATION BUILDING 1840 25TH STREET VERO BEACH, FLORIDA COUNTY COMMISSIONERS Richard N. Bird, Chairman Gary C. Wheeler, Vice Chairman Margaret C. Bowman Carolyn K. Eggert Don C. Scurlock, Jr. James E. Chandler, County Administrator Charles P. Vitunac, County Attorney Jeffrey K. Barton, Clerk to the Board SEBASTIAN CITY COUNCIL W. E. - Conyers, Mayor Frank Oberbeck, Vice Mayor Peter R. Holyk Lonni Powell George G. Reid *************** Robert McClary, City Manager Charles Nash, City Attorney ***********************.********** 2:00 P.M. Joint Meeting of the Indian River County Board of Commissioners and City of Sebastian City Council to discuss: CR512 ROAD WIDENING THROUGH CITY OF SEBASTIAN ANYONE WHO MAY WISH TO APPEAL ANY DECISION WHICH MAY BE MADE AT THIS MEETING WILL NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE WHICH INCLUDES THE TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL WILL BE BASED. NOV 2 6 199 Mg. 84 Tuesday, November 26, 1991 The Board of County Commissioners of Indian River County, Florida, met in Special Session with the Sebastian City Council at the First Floor Conference Room, County Administration Building, 1840 25th Street, Vero Beach, Florida, on Tuesday, November 26, 1991, at 2:00 o'clock P.M. Present were Richard N. Bird, Chairman of the Board of County Commissioners; Gary C. Wheeler, Vice Chairman; Margaret C. Bowman; Carolyn K. Eggert; and Don C. Scurlock, Jr. Also present were James E. Chandler, County Administrator; Charles P. Vitunac, Attorney to the Board of County Commissioners; and Virginia Hargreaves, Deputy Clerk. Present from the City of Sebastian were Mayor W. E. Conyers; Vice Mayor Frank Oberbeck; Councilmen Peter R. Holyk, Lonnie Powell, and George G. Reid; City Manager Robert McClary and other members of the City staff. City Manager McClary announced that the City has recently commissioned a traffic circulation study with the consulting firm of Kimley-Horn and they have representatives here from that firm. Chairman Bird called the joint meeting to order, welcomed all our guests from Sebastian, introduced all the County Commissioners and staff, and asked that the officials from Sebastian be introduced to those present also. Mayor Conyers performed the introduction of all the City Councilmen and Sebastian staff. Chairman Bird announced that this Joint Meeting was called to discuss CR512 Road widening through the City of Sebastian, as advertised in the following Notice: BonK PACE Jj4, NOV 2 6 1991 OV n 199 VERO BEACH PRESS -JOURNAL published Daily Vero Beach, Indian River County. Florida COUNTY OF INDIAN RIVER; STATE OF FLORIDA Before the undersigned authority personally appeared J. J. Schumann, Jr. who on oath says that he is Business Manager of the Vero Beach Press -Journal, a daily newspaper published at Vero Beach in Indian River County, Florida; that the attached copy of advertisement, being In the matter of in theCourt, was pub- lished in said newspaper in the issues of 1/4 Gi'% /. v � iff/ Affiant further says that the said Vero Beach Press -Journal is a newspaper published at Vero Beach, in said Indian River County, Florida, and that the said newspaper has heretofore been continuously published in said Indian River County, Florida, each daily and has been entered as second class mall matter at the post office in Vero Beach, in said Indian River Coun- ty, Florida, for a period of one year next preceding the first publication of the attached copy of advertisement; and afflant further says that he has neither paid nor promised any person, firm or corporation any discount, rebate, commission or refund for the purpose of securing this advertisement for publication In the said newspaper. Sworn to and subscribed before me this 19 day of /� �/� t%4 14 9/ 4.(Budifiess Manager) tSEAU BOOK PA GE NOTICE PUBLIC MEETING • The Board of County Commissioners of Indan River County will hold a Olt meeting with the City • of Sebastian City C^sLI to discuss the expansion of County Road 512 from U.S. 1 to Easy Street. Ail interested members of the pubic are invited to at- tend and participate in the meeting scheduled for TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 28, 1991 AT 2:00 o'clock P.M. In the First Floor Conference Room located In the Indian River County Adnindstratlon Bung at 1840 25th Street, Vero Beach, FL Anyone who may wish to appeal any decision which may be made at this meeting will need to ensure that a verbatim record of the proceedings is made, which includes testimony and evidence upon width the appeal is based. Nov. 19, 1991 •851518 Chairman Bird then asked County staff to explain the purpose of the joint meeting and give some background. County Administrator Chandler advised that the intent of the meeting is to discuss the proposed project and hopefully arrive at a consensus on a direction for the future. He felt it would be advisable for County Public Works Director Jim Davis to give a brief overview of the history of the proposed project and the alternatives and then go on from there. Public Works Director Davis just wished to give a few highlights of the lengthy history of this project. He noted that in 1985 the County purchased the old Gulf & Western R/W which begins at CR 510 and traverses in a northeast direction all the way to the F.E.C. railroad and is more than 4 miles in length. We then did an intersection study at U.S.I and CR512 as well as one at Barber Avenue and 512 and found we had some capacity constraints at the intersections, particularly at U.S.I. The County then in 1987 chose a consultant to begin to look at the corridor and make recommendations. This study, known as the Keith & Schnars Study, looked at different ways to mitigate the commercial frontage on 512. It was completed and presented to the Sebastian City Council in 1988, and a Resolution 2 was passed at that time basically approving the Keith & Schnars Study. Director Davis then reviewed the original plan which was to begin widening CR512 just west of Roseland Road. At that point, the 2 -lane road would transition into a 4 -lane divided highway with a 40' grass median. It would continue that way about 3 miles to the pointwhere the railroad R/W and the existing R/W split. There is about 3,800' of roadway where the railroad R/W splits off. At that point the original plan was to split the roadways with the eastbound traffic taking the alignment of the existing road and the westbound traffic would utilize the rail- road R/W. Considerable time was spent working with the F.E.C. negotiating for a new crossing, and a stipulation of parties now has been drafted to allow the County to have a new railroad crossing at the Gulf 8 Western railroad R/W. At the same time the railroad agreed to that, there was more discussion about the roadway; other alternatives were presented; and a desire was evidenced to grade separate the railroad from the road. Meetings about this went on all year, and recently the discussion culminated in a meeting in September where the City Council passed 3 Motions: one, that the one-way twin pairs alignment was not an acceptable alternative to the City; second that the construction of the 4-laning of the western part of CR512 should begin as soon as possible; and, third, that further discussion regarding the F.E.C. R/W and a possible grade separation be tabled until we resolved the alignment on the east 3,800'. Director Davis stated that it is staff's opinion that if we deviate from that original plan, there are four key issues that need to be addressed. Those issues are capacity - cost - impacts to surrounding areas - and design constraints. In regard to capacity, Director Davis advised that we are getting to the point where CR512 is reaching capacities of 10,000 vehicles per day. The eastern section of the roadway will be at Level "D" within 4/5 years, and he felt we should focus the initial improvements on the eastern section because of traffic counts and the higher accident history. He further advised that in recent communica- tions with the DOT, we have asked them to look at this and say what the DOT will support in terms of capacity analysis at the intersections. The DOT indicated they would support either the twin pairs alignment or widening the existing roadway. We also asked their feelings on two 2 -way roads, and they stated that Would not be a preference due to the multi -phase signals within 900' of each other that would be required on U.S.I. Director Davis stressed that the capacity issues are paramount in the OV 261991 vE° 34 NOV i e1991 E OOK 64 PAGE * ti eastern section. As you go west, the count drops about 2,000 cars a day until you get to Roseland Road. Regarding the issue of cost, Director Davis reported that for the_approximate 2# mile western section from Roseland Road to the Elementary School, the cost is estimated at 1.9 million. For the eastern 3,800' section. the twin pairs cost would be $778,000 and to widen the existing road is projected at about 1.5 million. He pointed out that cost for widening does not include any severance damages with abutting properties, and so you do not actually know what you are into until you work with each parcel on a case to case basis. The cost of doing the improvement from Roseland Road to the Elementary School plus the cost to widen the existing eastern section of 512 would add up to about 3.4 million, and we only have funding available of about 2.5 million. We also found that elevating the railroad over the roadway would cost about 7 million and to raise the road over the railroad and cloverleaf around would be about 20 million due to the elevation you would have to achieve to get over the railroad and U.S.I. Director Davis next addressed impacts to the surrounding areas and fronting properties, noting that we do not want to take buildings or disrupt frontage on the roadway if we can avoid it. He pointed out that there is also an impact that results from stormwater management because we must treat the stormwater coming off the road before it reaches the river. We would have to go to curb and gutter to minimize impacts, and then would have to pick up the stormwater and channel it to where you could treat it. Director Davis agreed there is some disadvantage to splitting the roadway in that it changes the traffic pattern, but staff feels the advantages to the capacity expansion we would achieve with one-way roads would offset much of the impact to the surrounding areas. The fourth issue is design constraints. The F.E.C. Railroad is a design constraint, and we do feel there needs to be a man- agement plan developed for the whole county relevant to dealing with this. The railroad has included in their 5 -year plan a• study of the railroad and U.S.I., and they will look at the whole county and hopefully do some planning for the future to lessen the impact of the railroad being so close to the roadway. We must take stormwater management into consideration when designing the roadway, and some of the property depth along the roadway is very shallow which might necessitate taking the whole property. Maintenance of traffic is another very important consideration. Director Davis concluded by saying that staff in looking at these four issues is still of the opinion that the twin pair alignment is a preferable option. 4 Chairman Bird asked if it would be fair to summarize that that of these four options, staff's preference is the twin one-way pairs; then twin two-way pairs; then four-laning of the existing roadway; and then some type of underpass or overpass for the railroad. Director Davis advised that they really did not feel two 2 -way roads would be a good capacity improvement because that introduced a new traffic signal, probably in the location by the school because you would have to allow for left turn movements to get onto that new 2 -way road. Whenever you introduce a traffic signal on the link, you reduce the capacity in that location. Councilman Powell asked if Director Davis didn't think you will have to have a traffic signal at the school anyway because he felt you will have a terrible traffic problem there when school lets out. Director Davis reported that he met with the School Principal and did some pedestrian movement counts, and there are 11 or 12 children who leave the school and cross the street at that point. We would certainly work with the School Board to make sure people can get in and out, and, of course, this would not necessitate a 24 hour signal. It could be handled with a manual traffic signal that would take care of the morning and the 3 o'clock traffic. Mr. Davis believed this will be an issue regardless of what option is decided on. Mayor Conyers wished to emphasize that any signal there will not be a 24 hour deal. He asked that Director Davis address the proposed new leg if you put in the buffers. Director Davis noted that we are fortunate to have the 100' wide railroad R/W, which is a very comfortable width for a 2 -lane road, and could possibly construct a barrier wall similar to what we built along Indian River Boulevard by Vista Gardens and are going to build to the north by Vista Harbor. There also could be a dense vegetative buffer. He definitely felt that with the width of the R/W we could provide adequate buffering. Councilman Oberbeck asked if property has been acquired for R/W on the east side of the tracks, and Director Davis confirmed that the County acquired 3 lots there about two years ago. Commissioner Scurlock recapped the various options and asked if staff's #1 alternative would be the twin pairs; #2 would be 4- laning the existing roadway; and #3 would be 2 two-way streets. Director Davis advised staff did not feel two 2 -way -roads would be a good alternative, and Chairman Bird noted that then he is really down to two options - the twin pairs and widening 512. Director Davis confirmed that those are the only two options that are in the realm of being cost effective. This is the area 5 NOV 2G 1 Pr- 14OV 26 1991 BOOK ' f "7 FAtiE �� G that has the most attractions where the people want to go. He noted that we are trying to split some traffic off onto Roseland Road and to divert some traffic onto CR510, and he did not feel going through the platted area of Sebastian Highlands would be a good alternative. Commissioner Wheeler wished it clarified that for the 3,800' east of the school, we are looking at a cost of $778,000 for the twin pairs and about 1.5 million for widening 512, or about $700,000 more to widen versus doing the twin pairs. Director Davis stated that based on Florida Dot figures, that was correct. Crossing the railroad is expensive and signalization is expensive; plus the need to curb and gutter the roadway and have underground drainage and an off-site pond for stormwater retention, etc. Mayor Conyers felt all that will add up to even more than the $700,000 difference in cost already stated, and Director Davis agreed because, as he earlier pointed out, the cost of $778,000 for the twin pairs did not include any severance damages. In addition, with the twin pairs you would not have to have curb and gutter, but could go with grass swales and use the swales for stormwater storage. Sebastian City Manager McClary advised that he had some concerns about the Keith & Schnars study. Although he did help draft the City Council's resolution approving that study, he was fairly new then. His impression at that time was that the study addressed the twin pairs as a "done deal," and he now wondered if the study went far enough. For instance, did that study address extending Fleming Street going through Chesser Gap and on to meet up with U.S.I. because he believed the commercial base needs may shift with the new Food Lion and other stores coming in at that location. He personally did not believe the Keith & Schnars study addressed that possibility adequately. Also when that study came to the City Council, it certainly was not his impression that it was being viewed by the City as an endorsement of the twin pairs. Director Davis explained that the Keith & Schnars study basically looked at trying to get a handle on what kind of laneage we needed to provide for that through corridor, which not only serves the surrounding area but goes all the way through to 1-95, and it looked at the design problems that would be encountered, especially with the small commercial lots to the west of the tracks; that was the main emphasis of that study. He reported that there have been other studies done of that corridor. One he found in his files that he had forgotten about 6 was prepared by a student from F.I.T, who did his senior thesis on this. Included in his study was a very comprehensive look at various alternatives and the design costs. This student worked very closely with the then Sebastian City Engineer, Hector Franco. The consensus was that the twin pairs was probably the best option, and that was the recommendation made. He further noted that Kimball -Lloyd has been our design engineer and has had no concerns with this twin pairs projects. Director Davis stressed that the Keith & Schnars study was not a "done deal." We mainly wanted to know their views of what was the best and most efficient alternative to serve the area. Manager McClary continued to maintain that the information on any other alternatives in that study seemed to be very sketchy. He continued that Director Davis is saying that the option of putting all lanes into the existing R/W would be twice as expensive as the twin pairs, but he wished to know if the County took into account any costs the County could recoup by selling some of the real estate they purchased, especially those 3 Tots to the east of the railroad tracks, which undoubtedly will become more valuable. Director Davis advised that we have not taken that possibil- ity into account, and he had some doubts about the value of 100' deep strips of property to anyone but abutting owners. City Manager McClary next noted that the County had to give up two railroad grade crossing in order to get one, and he felt it seems that we are giving up a pretty valuable resource of which we have a short supply. He did not think we would have to expend any of those resources to keep CR 512 in its current alignment. Director Davis informed him that the F.E.C. is taking a much more aggressive look at all the crossings along their entire system, not just in Indian River County, and the message we are getting from F.E.C. is that if we have some crossings in the county that are lightly utilized, we probably will be hearing from them requesting that we abandon those crossings. The crossings that we are giving up are the one at Bay Street in Roseland which has a very low traffic count and the one at 87th Street in Wabasso which has another railroad crossing very close - to it Commissioner Scurlock asked if F.E.C. legally can close crossings based on traffic counts, and both Director Davis and County Attorney Vitunac concurred that they can. City Manager McClary brought up possible expenses incurred due to business loss or damages, and felt if the improvements are to be built in the existing R/W, it would appear to be more 7 NOV 2 6 1991 NO11 F'NLE9S8 Pr- NOV 26'19 800K 4 FADE ,j3 logical that the R/W be acquired only on one side and that the north side would be more appropriate. Director Davis agreed the north side of CR 512 appears to be Tess encumbered until you get east of the railroad tracks, and then you have the used -car lot. He noted that he has been informed that owner probably would sell. Mayor Conyers advised that he heard just yesterday that property already has been bought and the buyer is intending to leave the business there. He believed if you do the widening of CR 512, the roadway would be torn up for some time. Director Davis explained that we usually push traffic over to one side and maintain the other side. There always will be some inconvenience when you build a project through an existing area. Councilman Reid felt the proximity of U.S.I. to the railroad is what makes that spot critical, and when you put the twin pairs in, you will just duplicate that problem. In addition, you will create another crossing at Louisiana Avenue which now does not exist, and in so doing, you will create another unsafe situation. If you widen 512, you still will have only one railroad crossing. Mr. Reid felt a big part of the solution would be to unload the traffic off 512, and he believed the Fleming extension could accomplish that. He further noted there has been a lot of discussion about extending Powerline Road to unload it to Jackson, and a crossing at Jackson would be much safer because it is further away. Mr. Reid also believed that there has been a great increase in railroad traffic; in fact, to the point where F.E.C. has said they may put in another set of tracks. He continued to discuss the alternatives for relieving traffic on 512, noting that the 512 railroad crossing was closed completely for some days a few months ago; the traffic was rerouted; and the City did not come to a screeching halt. Councilman Holyk concurred that as people become aware of increased traffic, they tend to look for another way around it, and that may turn out to be an advantage. Chairman Bird inquired what kind of reaction we got from the railroad in regard to the possibility of creating another two-way crossing. Director Davis advised that the railroad has no preference - the DOT has more of an interest because of the traffic issues on the U.S.I. R/W and their problem with the left turn movements created by two 2 -way streets. F.E.C.'s main interest is the number of cars that cross the track; they don't care what location we pick. 8 Councilman Oberbeck brought up the fact that in Melbourne between Strawbridge and New Haven Avenue they have the type of signalization being referred to as a problem on U.S.I. There the signals are only about 400' apart, and it certainly doesn't seem to pose much of a problem. He personally tends to lean towards the two 2 -way streets and he also favors the widening of 512. Mr. Oberbeck believed the county could sell off real estate and reover some of the difference in the costs between the twin pairs and widening 512. Councilman Holyk requested that the consultant hired by the City of Sebastian to do a traffic study be allowed to state their views. Steve Godfrey, professional engineer with Kimley-Horn Associates, informed those present, that they have been retained to conduct a traffic circulation study for the City of Sebastian. He wished to make it clear that it is not within the scope of their services to do an exhaustive study relative to CR 512. They have, however, gone through a great deal of history, and they understand what has transpired. Although they have drawn some conclusions, Mr. Godfrey pointed out that they have only been at this for a week and there may have been some things they have missed; so, he found it a little bit awkward to be in a position to evaluate studies on which much time has been spent. Mr. Godfrey did share the concern that has been expressed relative to the number of railroad crossings, but noted that they have not been involved in negotiations with the railroad and so do not know all the ramifications. Over the next 5/6 months, they will be looking at a long term network for the City of Sebastian and will be considering new crossings. To the best of his knowledge, this never has been done for the City at the level they are doing, and they will better understand network dynamics. Commissioner Scurlock asked if Mr. Godfrey disagreed with the opinion that the F.E.C. can close crossings, and Mr. Godfrey did not disagree. He did know that it is almost impossible to get a new crossing without a "sacrificial lamb," but he was sorry about the twin pairs taking away the Fleming crossing as they see that as a valuable part of the network. Mr. Godfrey felt another issue is impacts to Orange Heights. He agreed there is the opportunity to do some significant buffering, but the twin pairs will create an impact in the neighborhood by virtue of putting a public artery next to -the subdivision. Another concern related to the intersection of Louisiana Avenue and the north leg of the twin pairs, but he was assuming that will be addressed and the geometry dealt with. Their preliminary conclusions are that there will be some effect 9 NOV 26 1991 Ft\d jc. A91 BOOK 84 PAGE on the residential area, and the question is can it be adequately buffered. Mr. Godfrey felt it would be a single roadway pairs, and while continued difficult alignment they have address this, they do know patterns. On the positive there is not a lot of land that the next issue is capacity. He for any traffic engineer to argue that will have the same capacity as one-way not really had an opportunity to there would be some change in traffic side relative to the one-way pairs, out there that would be affected, but there would be a significant change in traffic patterns and it would have some effect on commercial. As regards a proposed railroad overpass, Mr. Godfrey noted that is really a future issue, but he did believe in the long term scenario that one or more grade separations along the railroad corridor in Indian River County is something worthy of pursuit. One of the things, he felt would be beneficial to bring this issue to a conclusion is some real hard cost information. Commissioner Scurlock inquired if Mr. Godfrey would concur that widening the existing roadway is a more expensive option. Mr. Godfrey agreed there is absolutely no question that it is a more expensive option, and when all is said and done, he is convinced this solution still would be more expensive, but he just did not know exactly what the difference will amount to when you take into account the value of the land and the related mitigation, Commissioner Scurlock brought up the cost of stormwater management as related to the widening, and Mr. Godfrey noted that the reality is that you have a low cost alternative versus the cost impact to a residential neighborhood and businesses. Councilman Reid asked that Mr. Godfrey speak more about the impact of the twin pairs on Louisiana Avenue and Orange Heights. He believed those residents would have to go all the way up to Main Street to get out to U.S.I. Mr. Godfrey felt they would have an option to do something else if they were going south, and Director Davis believed there is another platted R/W in that area that could be utilized and the possibility of a westbound loop around the lake system. Councilman Reid noted that would be adding more money to the construction costs, but Director Davis advised that we are not talking about expensive improvements - nothing major. There are some connection costs, but most of those Councilman Powell believed the fact county does not have a real cost figure, that as he said before, we have not done 10 costs are included. is coming out that the and Director Davis noted 100% of the drawings; we are using figures that the DOT would use at this stage of the project. Councilman Oberbeck asked if traffic signalization cost for the intersection of Louisiana Avenue and the north leg is included, and Director Davis advised that the current counts are not at the traffic signal warrant threshold at this time. Councilman Oberbeck believed you would increase the traffic flow at that intersection with the attraction of the new super- market at Chesser Gap, but Director Davis pointed out that if this were a one-way road, that movement could be more efficient. Commissioner Scurlock asked Mr. Godfrey's opinion as to whether using the DOT methodology is a reasonable and acceptable way to come up with costs at this stage. Mr. Godfrey confirmed that is a standard approach, and he agreed the portion of the cost that has been calculated does use DOT numbers, which are as good as any you can use, but he did not know if details of some of the other connection issues are there. He felt we need to make sure we know the total picture and again mentioned buffer costs associated with the mitigation of the impacts on residential development. Mr. Godfrey continued that several alternatives have been discussed - one-way roads - one-way pairs - two-way pairs; widening; additional possible roadway connections north and south, etc. - and his firm is convinced there is a need to have 4 lanes on 512 regardless. One other possibility that exists as another alternative is to have one leg, the south leg, one way and keep the north leg a two-way road. Mr. Godfrey discussed how the U.S.I. intersec- tions would function under this scenario and noted this is all just conceptual. Commissioner Scurlock commented that from everything he has heard, one of the major concerns we have is maintaining service levels in compliance with our Comprehensive Plan. He believed no one will ever know the exact differential in costs until you can actually bid this out, and his concern is that we have tried in this county not to have a moratorium in our community. That still is a very grave concern to him. The amount we have available in our impact fee account is about 2.5 million, and, therefore, as a Commissioner, that is the number he is forced to use. Sebastian is one of the fastest growing areas in the County. While he believed some people are not concerned about the possibility of a moratorium on any more development, he knew the business community certainly is, and to him that is an overriding concern. Once we get to a moratorium, there is no new growth; if there is no growth, there are no new impact fees; 11 R001( 84 F„EE JUZ NOV 261991 NOV 26'99 EOOK. FAGE if there are no new impact fees, there is no money to use for services, etc., and this just feeds on itself. Mayor Conyers stressed one of the main reasons he has been such a supporter of the twin pairs is that he is trying to look out for the business community, and he believed the man who made the presentation will tell you that the "M" word is a reality. He felt we can look at other things down the road, but this project is something we need to get started on right away. Commissioner Scurlock pointed out that the daily traffic counts have increased 1,400 in just one year. Councilman Oberbeck believed the major issue is the eastern- most portion of 512; so, if we don't have enough funding to do all of it properly, why don't we address the east first? Why not cut back on what we proposed for the western portion? Commissioner Scurlock noted that is what we want to do, but Sebastian's motion was to table that. Director Davis confirmed that when the original project was conceived, we found we had a problem at U.S.I. and were beginning to have a problem at Barber Street and CR 512. We were looking at a project between Barber and U.S.I., and we wanted to have a bike path and pedestrian facilities and decided to end the project at Roseland Road because it would transition and allow a full intersection widening at Barber. Councilman Oberbeck believed with all the points brought up, there is only several hundred thousand dollars difference to do the widening. He believed the major problem in the next few years is going to be the eastern portion of 512 from the Chesser Gap/Fleming area; so, why can't we just do that portion now instead of four-laning 512 all the way out. Director Davis agreed that is an option but pointed out that you will end up with a capacity problem at the Barber intersec- tion. Councilman Oberbeck continued to stress that you have a major problem at U.S.I. So, if we don't have enough to go all the way, let's do this portion now, and then as impact fees come in, continue on out. County Administrator Chandler informed those present that we do have sufficient money now to do the project as originally proposed, but if we can't reach an agreement on the twin pairs, what we are saying is that the emphasis is going to have to be placed on the eastern portion of the project and not proceed with the western part. That is, in effect, where we are at. He again stressed that we do have the dollars and the R/W to carry the twin pairs all the way through, but if we can't reach agreement 12 on that - then we are saying let's put the dollars on the east where the most critical capacity problems are. Councilman Oberbeck again suggested stopping the widening somewhere just west of Fleming and taking the dollars that are saved from the Fleming area to the Roseland Road area and widen the U.S.I/512 intersection. He felt that would allow money for land acquisitions, the drainage problems, etc., and the County could recover money from the sale of the property that has been purchased on U.S.I. Administrator Chandler noted that we have not included drainage and severance costs in our estimates, and those costs may or may not wash. Timing, however, is very important, and we are saying a decision needs to be made soon or we will be at capacity in that eastern section.. Councilman Oberbeck expressed his feeling that people in Sebastian lean toward 4-laning. Discussion continued, and Chairman Bird noted that this all is something like deja vu - he believed a year and a half ago we agreed, based on information provided by our professionals, that by doing the one-way twin pairs, construction could go more quickly with less interruption to traffic - costs would be less - and that creation of those two crossings at U.S.I. would be a safer situation - and, as a result, we voted a year to go with the twin pairs. It appears some Councilmen now feel strongly that widening is the way to go, but he still has professionals telling him that the twin pairs is the best way to go and he wished to know why the Councilmen feel so strongly widening is the way to go. Councilman Reid stated that one thing is that part of the twin pairs would go right through a historical section of Sebastian. Also that north leg of the twin pairs would go right through a scrub area, which is valuable ecologically; it would cut across the sand ridge; and there is a wetland area in there that would be affected. In addition, the north part of the twin pairs would bring in a road right alongside of the Elementary School and create a dangerous triangular intersection in front of the school, and it undoubtedly would upset the people in Orange Heights and affect the value of their property. Councilman Reid expressed his preference for the widening of CR 512 even though it is a more expensive project. Discussion again arose concerning the actual money needed to widen CR 512, and Director Davis referred to the following figures set out in the agenda back-up material, noting that these figures do not include severance costs: 13 NOV 2 6 1991 @DOK. 84 ML 994: r NOV 2T5 99 BOOK 84 FACE e je' Option 1 - Use Existing 512 Alignment Only First Phase: Construct 4 lanes with center turn lane on existing alignment (Urban Section) Construction Cost (196+00 - 163+00) = 3600 ft Use: : cost of new construction (Rural) for 3rd lane as storm drains are included in adding 2 lane to existing 2 lane h • 788,500 • 3600 = $268,800 5280 1,464,300 • 3600 = 998.400 5280 Construction Sub Total • Right -of -Way: (163+00 to 179+00) = 1600' 108' - 94' = 14' x 14' x 1600 x $3.00 $1,267,200 1 14' additional needed 94' existing $67,200 (179+00 to 189+50) = 1050' 108 - 66 = 42' 66' existing 42' x 1050 x $3.00 = $132,300 (189+50 to 193+00) = 350' 108 - 65' = 43' R/W varies 55'-80' 43' x 350 x $4.00 = $60,200 Use 65' (193+00 to i95+00) Existing R/W & RR R/W (195+00 to 196+30) = 130 108 - 80 = 28' 80' existing 28 x 130 x $6.00 = $21,900 R/W Sub Total $ 281,600 CONSTRUCTION SUB -TOTAL R/W SUB -TOTAL TOTAL $1,267,200 281,600 $1,548,800 Councilman Oberbeck continued to discuss taking property on the north side of 512. He personally believed the Rocket Station on U.S.I. is still for sale, and he was sure that the owner of the little old house on the north side of CR 512 would present no problem and be glad to cooperate. After more discussion about the various road frontages on 512 and the problems that would be encountered on the south, Chairman Bird requested that Director Davis address Councilman Reid's remarks regarding the problems the north leg of the twin 14 pairs would present and asked if the Councilman brought up anything we may not have considered. Director Davis advised that the scrub habitat referred to is not an undisturbed habitat. There is a railroad bed in the R/W, and the actual physical railroad tracks used to traverse that section of the R/W. In addition, the City's public works compound is located there, and there already is development in that area; it is not a pristine undisturbed area. Commissioner Scurlock advised that the County's Land Acquisition Committee had a presentation by some experts on that type scrub property, and in order to have a sufficient amount of property to be able to manage it, you cannot have just a few acres; they suggested 75 acres at least. Steve Godfrey of Kimley-Horn commented that although they have not done an environmental study, and none is included in their scope of work, they do have a staff biologist qualified in this field so they asked him just to walk the corridor and give an opinion on it. His opinion is that it does not have unique environmental qualities; it is not pristine; and it would not be what they would consider to be one of the more major concerns in this evaluation. Mr. Godfrey also felt there was some confusion regarding the one-way pairs creating a triangular intersection at the school. Actually what would cause the triangle would be if we have two 2 -way roads which would be a more complex situation. Mr. Godfrey noted one preliminary recommendation they have is that, if it hasn't been done, one thing that might be given serious consideration is looking to the land owners that would be affected by the one-way versus two-way operation to see if they would be supportive with possible donations of property to maintain the two-way operation. Very often the property owners that realize the benefits of a certain type improvement are willing to participate in some way. Mr. Godfrey also felt that a more comprehensive picture of the total differential in cost would help clarify all this, plus some details as to how mitigation for the residential area would be done. Lastly, his greatest concern is the issue of the railroad crossings. If, in fact giving up the 2 railroad crossings for the one-way pairs is something that is going to happen regardless, that is one scenario. If, however, those remain and could become bargaining agents for the future, then you have another scenario. Commissioner Wheeler stated it is his understanding the F.E.C. wants those two crossings whether we do the project or not, and Director Davis confirmed that is what we have been told. They have not gotten aggressive on that situation as yet, but we 15 NOV 26 1991 BOC 4 E'ACE J J / do have a new engineer there now. If we do get a letter from them, it might address crossings in Gifford or wherever. Mr. Godfrey continued to discuss the possibility of further negotiation on railroad crossings, and Director Davis advised that we did not get into multiple scenarios with them. We did manage to go from giving up 4 crossings down to 2 and felt that was making some headway. He further pointed out that when you do widen the existing crossing to accommodate more lanes, you get into what is known as a cantilevered signal mast arm similar to the one at the crossing on 16th Street in Vero Beach, which cost us over $200,000. The Chairman adjourned the meeting for a brief rest period and reconvened at 4:00 P.M. with the same officials present. Director Davis explained to those present that basically when we projected traffic volume increases, we looked at the last 4/5 years, and we are seeing about 1,000 cars a day in addition to the previous counts, and there are things happening right now that could elevate that traffic count very quickly. The Chesser Gap project could attract a great volume of traffic; in fact, it has been projected that as many as 15/16,000 trips a day could be attracted to that development which is proposed for 100,000 sq. ft. commercial, as well as 77,000 sq. ft. office space and a good bit of industrial space. The Food Lion is already under construction; the Elks Club will come along soon and possibly a bank. In addition, there is talk of a new development north of City Hall. All of this could have a very dramatic impact on traffic counts on the roadway, and before building permits are issued, we need to make sure there is capacity available. We feel our traffic projections have been very conservative and we have not included large developments. The traffic capacity of CR 512 is actually at a critical point right now. Chairman Bird asked about our projected timing if we get the go-ahead to do something. Director Davis advised that now that we have a draft stipu- lation of agreement with the railroad, taking into consideration completing design, obtaining DOT permits, stormwater permits, etc., he believed we could be ready to bid the project by mid 1992. He felt construction would go fairly quickly if we are working outside of an existing roadway and would take about a year. Commissioner Scurlock believed he is saying that it is not a difficult project as proposed, and Director Davis agreed. He noted that when you widen and go to curb and gutter, you have to 16 change the profile of the road; it is both more difficult and more expensive to modify an existing roadway. Chairman Bird asked if the proposed new school site on 512 is a long term thing, and Director Davis reported they are talking about going to site plan very quickly and that also could have a bearing. Discussion next ensued regarding the boundaries of the zone where the impact fees are collected, and Director Davis noted that the zone in question is District 3, which is bounded by Wabasso Road on the south, CR 510 on the west and includes basically the Roseland and Sebastian area. The impact fees come from the unincorporated area as well as the incorporated, and we have that broken down in dollars. West of this is District 7 which goes from the west side of CR 510 all the way over to Fellsmere. Chairman Bird asked if anyone from the audience wished to speak. Attorney Warren DTII came forward to speak in behalf of Sebastian General Partnership, the owners of the Chesser Gap property. He pointed out that this road project has been under discussion for several years, and while they do not have the solution to the eastern section, which they recognize is complicated, he believed there is really no controversy regarding the improvements to the west. Everyone agrees that needs to be done, and he is here today to urge the Board to move forward with the west part of the project. Early in '91, representatives of Sebastian General Partnership met with county staff on the future and timing of the 512 project, and it was clearly represented to them that the western part was going to be ready to go and would be going out to bid in the fall. Based on this, his client entered into an agreement with Food Lion, and the building permit has been pulled for construction of that development. Mr. Dill displayed pictures showing the progress of said project which is underway now and stressed there is a lot of money involved and there are a lot of serious time limits involved as well. He further noted that they have made representations to Food Lion based on what was told them about the western section of the CR 512 project being completed as well as signalization. It now seems, however, that things are getting bogged down, and while there has been a lot of discussion today on the eastern section, it appears there has been no resolution to that. Mr. Dill pointed out that the project at Chesser Gap is probably one of the largest projects going on in the county at this time. It is the largest project ever to go into the City of Sebastian; it will generate more revenue and tax dollars; and he urged that NOV 2 61991 17 ROOK 8 FA''d 998 14081 '46 199 LOOK those present honor the commitments made regarding the western part of the project. Commissioner Wheeler believed that Councilman Oberbeck proposed a scenario for not doing the western part and using some of those funds for a solution to the problems on the east, but Attorney Dill felt the Councilman just meant not to do the western portion all the way to Roseland Road. James Wadsworth next took the floor representing the Sebastian Property Owners Association which has nearly 300 members, and stated that he also is vice chairman of the Sebastian Planning & Zoning Board, although he is not speaking for them today. He advised that in 1988 and 1987 the Planning & Zoning Board sent the City Council a resolution asking them not to support the twin pairs. Mr. Wadsworth noted that none of the present officials were on the City Council at that time. A letter was sent to the county opposing the twin pairs, but he then later heard the Council was going to support it, and the P&Z again asked them to oppose the twin pairs, but he did not know what action was taken, if any. Mr. Wadsworth continued that the Highlands Property Owners had a meeting, and it was unanimous that they did not want the twin pairs built. They realize cost enters into it, but he believed Director Davis has said this is only a temporary solution to our problems for 5/7 years, and a longer solution is definitely needed. Mr. Wadsworth believed the 100' R/W is more than sufficient for two-lane traffic, and even if it is half a million more to do the widening of the present roadway, when we sell the property, he believed it will be close to a break even situation and you will have a lot happier taxpayers. He noted that you are talking about 2 traffic signals within 900' of each other on U.S.I, and if a train goes through, you will have traffic back up from one right to the other. Mr. Wadsworth stated that this is the first public hearing that has been publicized for the people to speak about this issue. There is not a public hearing on record that was advertised as such. He knows this has been going on for several years, and he knows most of the people know about it, but the business sector can't just shut down their businesses to go to meetings, and he would like to have a public hearing at Sebastian to get input from the people affected directly. Mr. Wadsworth also stated there never have been any minutes of any of the meetings that were held. Chairman Bird wondered how these organizations made all these decisions on this project if none of this material was available to them, and Mr. Wadsworth stated that they have read 18 about it in the newspaper and heard a presentation at the City Council meeting. Commissioner Eggert believed that Mr. Wadsworth was splitting hairs about the word "hearing" because every Board meeting we have has been published. Commissioner Wheeler commented that although there seems to be some concern that all this has been done in a vacuum, this has been a very talked about and controversial issue for at least six years, and there have been many meetings whether people attended them or not. He recalled that he personally attended a meeting in City Hall in Sebastian where Mr. Davis spoke specifically on this issue. In addition, we received a Resolution from past City Councils supporting this project, and also the Transportation Planning Committee unanimously support this, and their meetings are publicized and they solicit input. Mr. Wadsworth agreed there have been meetings, but only a few people knew about them. He continued to contend that there has not been an advertised public hearing until now and that there is no record in this building of any meetings that have ever been held. Commissioner Eggert noted that we have met at the Commission level and discussed this many times, and there are written Minutes of every Commission meeting ever held. Chairman Bird asked that Mr. Davis address to the best of his recollection how many appearances he or members of his staff have made to discuss this project either here or in the North County area. Director Davis knew of at least 4 formal meetings and many informal meetings. They met with the North County Businessmen's Association among others, and he pointed out that there is a list of probably 10 meetings, with Minutes attached, included in the backup material for today's meeting, and those are available for anyone to read or get a copy. Mr. Wadsworth continued to contend that what is proposed is only a temporary solution. He brought up the point that the Sebastian P&Z has been requiring people on the south side of 512 to setback 70' because of the new road that was going through, and he wished to know if they are going to be reimbursed for their 70' if the twin pairs are put in. He then noted that you will be limited as to what you can do on 100' of R/W, and felt that we may later need 6 lanes. Chairman Bird advised that we do not have just 100' of R/W - the 100' is additional to the R/W we already have. Director Davis further explained that the amount of R/W varies considerably in the eastern section - from 50/60' in some 19 NOV 1991 (OOK 84 F'AuE° ® 2,6 1991 BOOK S4 PAGE.O(1 spots to over 200' in others, and as to temporary measures, he explained that the 4 -lane road is a temporary cross section until the full 6 lanes is implemented. Our traffic projections showed a need for 6 lanes in the future, and he believed we have used the word "temporary" meaning until the 6 laning is implemented. Commissioner Scurlock asked if there is room for 6 lanes, and Director Davis advised that there is in the twin pairs option, but if you go with a curb and gutter 5 lane section, some day you would have to bust it out and widen it. He further noted that the 5/7 year time frame came into play when we were looking at the railroad grade separation, which we thought would take 5/7 years, and stated that it would be almost impossible to construct a grade separated interchange along the existing alignment if you had 5 lanes of traffic. The options are better with the twin pairs alignment, which offers more flexibility. George Metcalf, 425 Pine Street, wished to speak in favor of the county proceeding with the construction of the westbound lane of the original twin pairs as soon as possible. He stated that the City of Sebastian has used the Home Rule provision of Chapter 163 Florida Statutes to stop and delay viable projects since March of 1984. As John Little pointed out in this morning's PRESS JOURNAL, Sebastian has a very poor record in project management. Mr. Metcalf noted that after 10 years in Indian River County, he moved to Sebastian in 1983, and in 1984 he was appointed to the Airport Advisory Board at the critical time of the award of the contract for the Airport master plan. He thought he could utilize his 24 years of experience and training in performing a lead role of government project management, but he was slow to recognize the extent of the "empirics" moving into the city government. Mr. Metcalf defined "empirics" as those who enter a practice without regular professional education and with- out experience, i.e., a quack. He continued that he felt the city government is reverting back to the philosophy of the ancient Greek sophists. Chairman Bird asked that Mr. Metcalf keep his remarks pertinent to the project being discussed, and Mr. Metcalf stated that he would after completing the next paragraph in his statement. Mr. Metcalf continued on, referring to the dictionary's definition of "sophism" as a clever or cunning contrivance that is not supported by sound reason - arguments that are plausible but fallacious and intended to mislead. He felt these may account for the proposal today to take the road from Chesser's Gap through to U.S.I., which would be expensive and benefit only 20 one developer. He stated that this idea was put in the Compre- hensive Land Use Plan with absolutely no background data or traffic analysis, and this also applies to the use of Powerline Road. Mr. Metcalf noted that the County has a very competent county staff, and Sebastian, with the exception of the City Clerk's office, has none. He stressed that the County Commission owns the R/W now, and he urged that they get on with the project and stop listening to the spurious, illogical arguments being presented to delay this project. Al Lewardi, (phonetic), resident of Sebastian, believed the project under discussion has been in the works for sometime regarding the twin pairs. He noted that anything can change as time goes on because things change, but the way he sees this, something has to be done right now. He felt we are all in agreement on that, and he would suggest now that the County Commission be the spearhead and take action with the state to get the railroad moved out parallel to 1-95. He realized that will take years, but it will also take years to get a grade elevation. Chairman Bird felt if that would be a simple solution, we all would prefer not to see the railroad bisect our communities, but the position the railroad takes is that they were here first; they helped establish the state; and we built our towns around them. He doubted that their stand on that will ever change. Richard Lambert of Lambert Real Estate, Inc., located on CR 512, noted that he would definitely be impacted either way. He continued that the comments he has heard today are the same ones he has heard over and over and over. They didn't make sense to. him before, and they don't now. He knew all along that the initial county plan for 512 did project 6 lanes at some time in the future, but he also has heard someone say today that the engineering plan was flawed because it was only good for 5/7 years. He cannot understand how statements like that can be made by knowledgable people. It did not take that much effort for him to be aware that the ultimate plan allowed for 6 lanes at some time when it was needed. So, he sees nothing wrong with the twin pairs engineering and studies up to this point. Mr. Lambert realized the county couldn't finish their engineering because a decision has to be made, and they are not going to expend additional money without knowing which way they are going. Mr. Lambert continued that by the same token, today all across this country there are hundreds and thousands of people out of work - the state government is in financial trouble, and fiscal irresponsibility is behind most of it. At this point we have a project that is fully workable; you don't have to be a traffic engineer or a consultant to look at this project and to 21 NOV 26 1991 84 Pr - NV 261 91 800KFAEE1O Jr"' see it is a good project - one way traffic going one way and one way traffic going the other way is certainly easier to deal with than four lanes of traffic together, and it is a cheaper project-. Mr. Lambert felt it is totally fiscally irresponsible to say we don't like the twin pairs project, and we don't care if it costs more, we want to widen 512 where it is. He has not heard anything presented by anyone that provides any factual data or engineering support for anything other than the twin pairs. He knows some of the people here are in business on 512, and they don't believe that they will be impacted if the highway is torn up and 4-laned in its present location, but he would tell them that we all might just as well shut our doors while that is going on, and you are looking at 15-18 months for that project to be completed. None of these businesses, his included, depend on through traffic; they are sought out by the people who want their service. Mr. Lambert stated that he is really upset at the thought that people are willing to think of spending more money for a project that isn't as good, especially when nobody knows just how much more that cost will be. This is a county road and a county project, and the county owns the R/W. He realized the County Commission is trying to be considerate of the City, but there comes a time to "fish or cut bait," and he believed we are at that point. Attorney DTII also stressed the urgency of moving ahead and respectfully requested that the Board take some official action today on the west part of 512 at least. Mr. Lambert noted that we all accept the fact that traffic is growing rapidly on 512, and once the Chesser's Gap development is in there, the traffic will increase tremendously. He pointed out that if you 4 -lane the west part of 512 and not the east, there will be a terrible bottleneck. He felt strongly that it makes no sense to even consider starting this project unless you start at U.S.I - then go west and do the whole thing. You have the money to do it, and anything else is a stop gap patch method that will create more problems than it will alleviate. Councilman Holyk had two comments. As to meeting with the F.E.C. engineer, Mr. Stokely, which their City Engineer also attended, he has seen minutes from that meeting, and very frankly if we have a northern leg, a twin pairs type of alignment, one of the major discussions was that you don't have as much flexibility as you would like to have because that northern leg would have to be shut off if you changed the grade separation even in the least little bit; so, it doesn't give you quite as much flexibility as you might believe. Another thing that has struck him as much 22 time as he has spent in going through all the "studies," is that it is said we have "looked at" options, and he would like to use the words not "looked at" but "peeked at" some of them. He would like equal time for the alternatives the same as given the twin pairs and he has not seen that so far. County Attorney Vitunac asked Director Davis if he had a comment on the suggestion regarding the south leg being one way and the northern part two way. Director Davis advised that we really haven't considered that, but he felt that would be a preferable option to both roads being two way. It would take some study to really evaluate its effects. Councilman Oberbeck didn't think you would gain anything by it because he felt the problem is not westbound; it is eastbound - you can't get off 512. Chairman Bird did not see where we are going with this. He has heard all this before, and he voted in favor of the twin pairs project then. He appreciated all the input of today, but nothing he has heard today has changed his opinion. He had hoped that in hearing this presentation and the dialogue today, that a majority of the Council would change their opinion and see fit to endorse the twin pairs project with us, but it doesn't appear that is happening. He feels that it is unfortunate that it hasn't because we want to be good neighbors and cooperate together. He, therefore, feels somewhat at an impasse. Commissioner Scurlock advised his opinion has not changed either but he did not feel there is any impasse. We have professional staff, and they have taken more than just a "peek" at the alternatives. We do try to listen to local officials, but the zone, the district, the service area affected by this road is far more than just the City of Sebastian. He felt we would be serving our entire community incorrectly if we did not make the long range decision that allows for 6 lanes and does so in the most economical fashion. Commissioner Eggert stated that she feels the same way. ON MOTION by Commissioner Scurlock, SECONDED by Com- missioner Eggert, the Board unanimously agreed to move forward with the concept pursued in the last 6/7 months - the twin pairs. 23 NOV 2 6 199 MrK U 14 [J4 V2 6. 1.A1 !BOOK �. PAGE14U5 C� There being no further business to come before the meetin it adjourned at 4:55 o'clock P.M. ATTEST: 24 Chairman